Exclusive – Vivek Ramaswamy Predicts Intra-America First ‘Debate’ on Level of Government Power, Control After Populists Vanquished Neocons

DETROIT, Michigan — Former 2024 GOP presidential candidate businessman Vivek Ramaswamy told Breitbart News exclusively at the Turning Point Action People’s Convention in June that he sees a coming debate within the America First future of the GOP about the size, scope, and level of control of the government.

Ramaswamy, who believes the old neocon vision of globalist Republicans is mostly a thing of the past and would be finished by a November victory from former President Donald Trump, told Breitbart News that he thinks this debate will be a healthy disagreement between differing worldviews.

“First let’s just talk about the strand of the Republican Party in the historical neocon or neoconservative movement of yesterday,” Ramaswamy said. “It favors an expansive surveillance state, it favors foreign intervention even in places that don’t directly affect U.S. interests in the name of ensuring global hegemony. That’s an old vision—the Dick Cheney vision of the Republican Party. The new direction says the first and sole moral duty of any leader in this country is exclusively to our own citizens and you know what? We don’t want some sort of expansive surveillance state. We’re skeptical of that government. We don’t want bureaucrats exercising undue power. The people we elect to run the government should actually run the government. So that’s the America First movement as distinct from the historical neocon movement of yesterday. I think this actually broadens the tent of the future Republican Party to include independents, libertarians, and even some former Democrats who otherwise may not have come around to that old Dick Cheney vision. Now, within that future of America First there are also a number of strands that I think go unexamined that I think are a little less relevant in this year’s election but after Donald Trump’s second and hopefully even more successful second term, I think that is going to be an important set of policy debates and conversations we have in our own movement and where the America First movement goes from here.”

Ramaswamy warned that victorious populist nationalist conservatives, after defeating the neocons once and for all, should be skeptical of efforts to replace leftist big government with some America First version of big government. He said that what he thinks will be the more successful vision people should fight for is what he called a “fusion of what I see as a libertarian-nationalist movement.”

“This is a little bit rolling the ball forward. I don’t think this is relevant to this year’s election, but it’s percolating underneath the surface. Fellow America First patriots even ones I deeply respect may have slightly different views on where I think the America First movement actually goes from here,” Ramaswamy said. “One direction is to go the direction of substituting the left-wing nanny state with a new right-wing version of that same expansive government but to advance ends that are worthy or to help Americans more. This would be the direction thinking about favoring certain industries over other industries using government power to do it. If the government doesn’t like something—like say TikTok, which you could put in this category—we should ban the things that are bad and use government power to do it. I see it a little bit differently. I think the future of America First is actually a fusion of what I see as a libertarian-nationalist movement, borrowing from the libertarian principles of our founding saying we are skeptical of government and for the same reason I’m skeptical of left-wing overgrowth of the administrative state I don’t want the overgrowth of that administrative state at all.”

Asked if this means he is disagreeing with the idea that some have pushed for—an industrial policy—Ramaswamy argued that he believes tariffs and economically protective government policies are good for national security reasons but when they prop up certain industries otherwise destined to fail without such government protection that that causes issues the left will exploit when Democrats inevitably return to power.

“So, you’re getting into detail and I like intellectual conversation like this, I think the use of tariffs or the use of, you could say, defensive economic measures, for national security is a necessity, vis-a-vis China,” Ramaswamy said. “I don’t think we should depend on China for our military industrial base. I think it’s a fair lever when you think about the immigration crisis at our own southern border. We shouldn’t be rewarding Mexico with trade rewards when they’re not actually doing their part to stop illegal mass migration. But that’s different from protectionism. I don’t think we should use that as a lazy argument for just saying ‘oh, well, you know what? We’re just going to coddle our own industries.’ Because then you’re going to select which industries are coddled versus not, and when the left gets back into power they’re just going to select the industries that favor them. So I think the future is really a libertarian-nationalist movement, not just thin libertarian alone—that’s not enough. You’ve got to stand for national interest, and you’ve got to stand for national pride, but without reverting into some of the same mistakes that the left makes. That I think is the real future of America First. Right now, I think the bigger distinction is America First versus the neocon vision of yesterday but roll this forward three or four years post what I view and hope will be an even more successful Trump term, I think this libertarian-nationalist direction is going to be the future of our movement.”

While Ramaswamy did not criticize by name any individual person in particular in this forward-looking interview, he did highlight a few places he sees as this policy debate playing out in the coming years after what he expects will be a Trump victory in November.

“I call this less of a fight because these are people who agree on certain core principles, right? The people we elect to run the government should run the government and they owe their moral duty to the citizens of this country,” Ramaswamy said. “But where’s the policy rift a little bit? I think it will come to how much you’re willing to expand the scope of the regulatory state. You’ve got Republicans, even good America First Republicans, who would say that you need to expand safety regulations administered by the Department of Transportation or otherwise to look after the interests of Americans. I think it’s a good motivation, I just think it’s the wrong way to actually get it done because any overgrowth of the administrative state is a cancer on this country. So I think the expansion of the regulatory state, even in the name of protecting American goals, in the realm of I would say industrial policy and economic policy, yes unlike the Republicans of last century we’ve got to make sure we’re not just feeding the beast of China to make sure they aren’t geopolitically controlling the U.S. but that’s different than saying we’re going to end the kinds of relationships with all of the different countries with trade that just coddle certain industries. I don’t think that’s the right way to go either. So the right way again is core libertarian principles but tied with our nationalist commitment to saying that the United States of America is a nation worth being proud of and with national boundaries and borders worth preserving.”

One place, interestingly, where this debate is already seemingly playing out—not just in the America First movement and inside the GOP but more broadly in American government and public policy spheres even with Democrats in control of the executive branch—is how to approach Artificial Intelligence (AI). When it comes to AI, there is a raging debate among policymakers about the threat of China beating America to certain technological developments—but there is also a rising level of concern among some Americans that certain restraints should be employed on technological development out of fear rapid AI advances could prove detrimental to society. Ramaswamy, when asked about this, offered his views on what policy restraints should be employed with regard to AI.

“I’ll give what I view from first principles is maybe an answer. Here’s a good first step. AI’s interface with children, first of all that’s an area where we draw a different boundary than we do with AI’s interface with other types of adult uses,” Ramaswamy said. “Second is, here’s something we’re not doing, attach liability to the companies that create AI algorithms to say that if you have an unintended consequence of a protocol or an algorithm, you’re still liable for that consequence. That’s not the framework today, so you have an arms race. But if companies themselves know that they’re going to be held strictly liable for the consequences of their own actions, just like you can’t dump chemicals into somebody else’s river, you can’t proverbially do that through AI protocols or algorithms either. That’s an example of where rather than creating some government overgrowth body and put it under a good vice president but then you get Vice President Kamala Harris who’s the one actually in charge of it now, who’s let’s be honest quite likely can’t even spell AI despite being in charge of it, that’s actually the mistake we risk making as a movement is if we expand the tools of government to do what we say is good when the same shoe fits the other foot that’s really when we lose. So, this war against the administrative state—the destruction of the existence of the administrative, regulatory state—we have got to stay true to that as our North Star and not veer in the name of domestic or industrial policy or safety regulations looking after Americans. I do see the early percolations of that strand in our movement and I think that while it starts with good intentions that’s not actually the right lasting future direction of America First.”

For the America First movement to survive and prosper for generations to come, Ramaswamy said it must be based on principles and people need to understand it’s bigger than any one person.

“It’s got to be based on principles,” Ramaswamy said. “The beauty of President Trump is he’s such a force of nature and such a leader who unified so many different strands of the Republican Party and beyond. I think the next step is now what are the actual principles that America First stands for? I’ll give you a couple. The people we elect to run the government should run the government, and the sole moral duty they owe is to the citizens of this country not their own pocketbooks and not the citizens of some other nation but the citizens of this nation. That’s the North Star of the future of the America First movement. It’s not tied to any one person. It’s bigger than Trump. It’s bigger than me. It’s bigger than anybody else. It started in 1776, and we got another 250 years left to go. That’s the way I see it.”

Asked for his advice for Trump as he embarks on the most critical stages of his comeback campaign, Ramaswamy said Trump should keep doing what he’s doing by showing up in unexpected places.

“I’d say a couple of things. One is continue to do the things he’s doing that Biden isn’t, which is show up in the places you’re not expected to show up,” Ramaswamy said. “From the South Bronx to Detroit right here where we are to maybe college campuses this fall to the Libertarian convention where I spoke and President Trump as well, that’s what a true leader does is show up to lead an entire nation. Not just one strand of it like Joe Biden’s doing, but the entire nation, and I think people value that strain of authenticity that a lot of the left is no longer offering. Then my advice to President Trump would be, and he’s never been afraid to do this anyway, but don’t be afraid to buck traditional, historical Republican orthodoxy. He’s a true leader, and he’s got to continue being a leader. That’s how he’s going to win.”

Ramaswamy also said that Trump appearing in Detroit here, where he spoke the weekend of this convention when this interview was taped, is a strong sign for the movement.

“Oh absolutely, it would be like Joe Biden campaigning in middle Mississippi right now which is not going to happen for the remainder of this election,” Ramaswamy said. “But I’ll tell you something. This is about the new Republican Party. The America First direction of the Republican Party has a clear message to this country: America First includes all Americans. I think that’s a powerful message. Black or white, man or woman, it doesn’t matter. We stand for shared ideals that put our own citizens first and I do think that’s a bit of a departure from the Republican Party of yesterday. I think that’s a good thing. I think it’s a formula for lasting electoral majorities in this country and so yeah, from the South Bronx where President Trump went I’ve traveled to the south side of Chicago to Kensington on my campaign for president, good. We’re here in Detroit today and I think that’s a great thing.”