On Tuesday’s broadcast of MSNBC’s “All In,” Rep. Dan Goldman (D-NY) stated that “If Hamas doesn’t want its citizens or itself to die anymore, then it should turn over the hostages and it should surrender its weapons. No one is asking or calling on Hamas to do much of anything to help the Palestinian people,” and stated that we can’t “put all the responsibility on Israel to do everything — many things that Hamas should be doing.”

After Goldman called for the eradication of Hamas, host Chris Hayes asked, “[W]hat level of destruction and death makes that calculation change? I understand lots of folks are understandably skeptical of any Hamas-led agency…but I think all indications we have so far is that there’s just enormous human suffering in Gaza, thousands of civilians have died. Today, the strike at the refugee camp seems sort of a perfect example of precisely this sort of situation. The IDF says there were tunnels underneath with a top Hamas commander — in fact, someone active in planning October 7. They struck — they say that struck that complex, and they struck the tunnels beneath it. But there were buildings above it, and there [are] clearly civilians in those buildings and clearly some of them are injured and some of them died. Is there some level at which it becomes untenable to continue at this pace, if another 10,000 people lose their lives or 20? Is there a limiting condition here?”

Goldman answered, “Hamas does not play by the rules. They obviously put their military structures and infrastructure under hospitals, within the civilian population. When Israel warns Palestinians to leave particular targets or to evacuate, Hamas is well known to discourage them or even prevent them from doing it, because their strategy is this propaganda strategy to use the civilians as human shields. And I agree, though, with Jake Sullivan, that that is not sufficient to absolve Israel of its obligations to do everything it can to protect innocent civilians. And a lot of it comes down to the fog of war. If it is true, as Israel claims, that there are — those were military targets, that they were masterminds behind it, if Israel did provide some degree of warning — and they have been pretty consistently doing that, even though it’s to their military strategic detriment — then they are abiding by the laws of armed conflict. And this is a war that Hamas started. So, there are, unfortunately, going to be deaths. The question is, what efforts is Israel taking to do everything that it can to protect innocent civilians while also executing its military strategy? And that’s where we really need to focus.”

Hayes then said, “I still wonder, is there some limiting condition, right? Like, if this goes another six months at this pace, is there some point at which it just seems that the costs can’t be supported? Because it seems, to me, in the abstract, there must be, right? Can you imagine coming to that point?”

Goldman responded, “Well, I think part of the problem is that you’re looking at the calculus from the wrong way. If Hamas doesn’t want its citizens or itself to die anymore, then it should turn over the hostages and it should surrender its weapons. No one is asking or calling on Hamas to do much of anything to help the Palestinian people, and I think that the responsibility goes far beyond Israel. It does include Israel, but it also goes far beyond Israel, and it goes to Egypt and it goes to Hamas itself, which siphons off fuel and electricity and food and water from its own people. And that is a very important aspect of this, because my sense is this would be over a lot faster if Hamas would give over the hostages. Why are we not talking about the fact that there are 240 hostages that they continue to hold?”

Hayes then asked, “I couldn’t agree more. I think morally, there’s just no question. They just slaughtered men, women, and children in their sleep, so I don’t think anyone has any delusions about them as an entity, right? To me, the more — the question is the leverage, right? If the U.S. had leverage to get Hamas to release the hostages, it would be insane for us not to use that, obviously. It’s just that it doesn’t seem like we have a ton of that, right? The asymmetry here isn’t so much a moral asymmetry, as a — just asymmetry of what the relationships are with the two combatants in this war. Whatever you think about the two combatants, I don’t disagree with you about Hamas, I’m just saying, yeah, if we could control what Hamas did, that would be a very different world. But that’s not the world we live in, right?”

Goldman answered, “Yeah, but we can’t just accept that as a given and therefore put all the responsibility on Israel to do everything — many things that Hamas should be doing. And Israel absolutely must abide by the laws of armed conflict. They must abide by international humanitarian law. They must ensure that food, water, and medical supplies, and shelter [get] to those people who have been evacuated because of Israel’s war effort. But Hamas also needs to take responsibility for its own people.”

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